Redefining Infant Sleep with Taylor Kulik EP: 123

In this episode, we are sharing:

Read the transcript of this episode:

Depression, anxiety and autoimmune symptoms after birth is not how it’s supposed to be. There is a much better way, and I’m here to show you how to do just that. Hey, my friend, I’m Maranda Bower, a mother to four kids and a biology student turned scientist, obsessed with changing the world through postpartum care. Join us as we talk to mothers and the providers who serve them and getting evidence-based information that actually supports the mind, body and soul in the years after birth. Hello, my friends, Welcome to postpartum university. Of course, I’m your host Maranda Bower, and I have here an incredibly special guest. I have been following Taylor Kulick for a very long time. She’s a sleep consultant and parenting educator and an occupational therapist. She’s helped myself and many, many other parents ditch the fear and parented and deeply understand their children and why they sleep and behave the way they do. She provides this holistic support and education to help optimize sleep for the entire family in a way that aligns with parental intuition and what feels good. She is one of the very few people that I recommend for sleep education and resources, because she respects infant biology, human and maternal nature and developmentally appropriate practices. That is a mouthful, but I am so, so glad that you are here, Taylor.

Taylor: 1:40

Thank you so much for having me. That was such a great and sweet introduction.

Maranda: 1:43

Thank you, yes of course, Tell us how did you get into this field?

Taylor: 1:48

Yeah, so, as you stated I was. I am an occupational therapist. When I had my first child, over six years ago now, I just saw this gap in care for postpartum women. It started there, started with me wanting to support women who had just had a baby with their just holistically, with sleep, with their mental health, with their pelvic floor health, et cetera. Over time, as I began to have a lot of sleep issues with my own child quote unquote sleep issues turns out she was sleeping very normally, but I thought they were sleep issues. I really found my specialty was going to be sleep, because every time I posted about anything, it was sleep, sleep, sleep, sleep. That was what everybody wanted to know more about. I thought, okay, there’s something here. Families who don’t want to sleep train are needing support. At the time, I was really struggling with my daughter’s sleep. I was trying little bits and pieces of sleep training and the schedules and the laying her down drowsy but awake that I was reading online and just nothing was working. When she was around six months old, this was when things got really rough. She would no longer be laid in her crib. She was sleeping in a crib in our room and she would just no longer be laid down. She would only sleep in bed with me. I didn’t think that I could bed share. I’m a healthcare professional. I’ve been told over and over and over that bed sharing is so, so dangerous. My husband finally said just let her sleep with us because this is the only way any of us are getting sleep. I did, but I felt a lot of shame around that. I didn’t want to admit that to anybody. I felt like I had failed as a mom. I had done that one thing that there’s so much emphasis on not doing when you’re a new mom, and that’s bed sharing. I couldn’t get my child to sleep independently, which is how she was supposed to sleep. Of course, you feel like a failure. So it was around that time that I shifted my focus into sleep and learning and exploring safe bed sharing guidelines. I found the work of Professor James McKenna and Helen Ball and all of these wonderful people, these researchers, these educators who have been out here long before I have actually advocating for safe bed sharing for families and their babies. I felt more confident in bed sharing. Then I realized I need to help, support and educate families who are in the same position that I am, who had no idea that bed sharing was even an option, who don’t want to sleep, train but don’t know what else to do. That’s what I began doing. I began learning and I began sharing the information I was learning. Now that’s what I do. A lot of what I do is just re-educating parents about how babies are meant to sleep and so to help them lower their expectations, have realistic expectations and goals, helping support families who do want to co-sleep in bed, share and respond to their baby. Really, a lot of parents just need to be encouraged that this is okay to do, which is so crazy. It’s so crazy to say that it’s okay for you to pick up your baby when they cry, but a lot of parents need that Also supporting their sleep holistically so that if there is an underlying issue going on, we help figure out what that is.

Maranda: 5:12

There is so much to unpack here. I have so many questions. Now You’re right, sleep is a multi-billion dollar industry. When it comes to maternal and infant sleep, it’s beyond crazy how much we focus, even when we go and we say, hey, mom, we don’t say how are you? We say are you sleeping? Is baby good? Is baby sleeping?

Taylor: 5:35

It’s a good baby Is it a good baby Is there sleeping through the night. That’s two months old, yeah right.

Maranda: 5:42

Where did this come from? Why do we have these crazy ideas? What are these ideas of what infant sleep should be? Why are we following this?

Sleep Training History and Impact

Taylor: 5:52

Yeah, that’s a great question. I actually recently just wrote a blog post about the history of sleep training and we probably don’t have time to get into all of it, but it is really interesting and it really is. Within the last maybe 150 years or so is when sleep training is the first time that we’ve ever really seen sleep training in in any published literature. So I don’t think it was happening really before then. But it came about around the time of the Industrial Revolution when women began entering the workforce. And also around this time families started moving into cities to work. So they started moving away from their village. Right, you know, back in the day families just lived with one another, extended families, mothers had support, but that changed during the Industrial Revolution. So it was around this time that sleep training became kind of popular, and it was mostly doctors both male and female doctors, interestingly enough were promoting this sleep training advice. And then it just kind of it just kind of spiraled from there and people expanded on the concepts and it’s just been. It’s been years and years of this. And why we follow the advice, I don’t really know. I think it’s just because when something is repeated so much, eventually you just believe it, no matter whether it’s rooted in fact or not, and I think a lot of it is that we do live in a society that isn’t supportive of having a baby or being a mother or being a baby right, it’s a very fast-paced society. A lot of times moms feel they or feel or do need to return to work almost immediately postpartum. There’s not holistic support and encouragement really of supporting our instincts and sleeping with our babies and responding to their needs, and so we feel like we need a fix right, and so a lot of times it is really just convenience. I think probably a lot of doctors are also recommending sleep training just because parents are coming into them saying my baby’s not sleeping, I need them to sleep, and doctors are just saying just sleep training because they feel like they have to give a fix. We could get into the whole formula and separation of baby and mother thing too, but I mean this could be a whole separate podcast episode. Oh my gosh.

Maranda: 8:12

So yes, so true, absolutely. Can you tell us really quickly what is your definition of sleep training, because I am hearing so many providers say that it’s a gamut of so many different things, right? Oh well, I’m talking about sleep training. That only encompasses this, so it’s safe and putting stipulation and regulations on it. But I really want to open the conversation of what is sleep training really Right.

Taylor: 8:40

Yeah, that’s a really important question because, you’re right, everybody has their own definition of sleep training, and so when I’m talking about sleep training, I’m operating under my definition of sleep training, which might not align with somebody else’s. So I believe sleep training is anything that is one non-responsive to a baby. So if baby is crying, we are not responding to their needs, whether that is just overall not responding at all, which would be like cry it out is what people would normally call it or even just like timed intervals, like we’re going to put baby in their crib and let them cry for two minutes and not check on them, and then we’ll check on them and then we’ll let them cry for five minutes, and so it’s this gradual thing, but it’s still non-responsiveness. But also anything that tries to force baby into something that they’re not developmentally ready for. So there are all kinds of schedules like sleep schedules and feeding schedules out there, and some of those are going to work for some babies. Like, if you have a more easygoing baby, they might be just fine with those sleep schedules, they might be just fine with being laid down in their crib and they might not cry, or they might just fuss and groan a little bit and then go to sleep. But some babies are not going to, they’re just going to be like absolutely not right. So if you’re doing something, some sort of schedule or strategy that is just not working for baby and you’re trying to force it, I consider that sleep training Also anything that feels wrong to a parent, that feels like it’s going against their intuition, right? So that’s like a simplified version of sleep training. I think sleep training can look different for each baby Because, again, if you have an easygoing baby, you might be able to leave them in the crib and it might not be a big deal for them, right? Again, they might fuss and groan a little bit and go to sleep in two minutes, whereas I had the babies that are very spirited, very highly sensitive, very persistent, and if I laid them in their cribs alone they would scream and cry until they vomit for five hours. And so those are the same strategies, but for one baby it was sleep training and for one it might not have been really sleep training.

Maranda: 10:39

So it’s complicated, it so is. I mean, I’m a mom of four and so I’ve had plenty of sleepless nights in my lifetime probably years and trying to figure it all out. And another comment that I want to share with you, that I get quite frequently and that I hear from the mom community, and that what I felt immensely was this shaming right when this whole idea of, well, if I don’t sleep train my baby, then I’m going to be shamed, or if I do sleep train my baby, I’m gonna be shamed right, because we feel like there’s like these two polar opposites in terms of their techniques and beliefs around sleep, and either way I’m gonna feel shame for whatever it is. And if I speak out against something like crying it out or doing something that is not biologically appropriate for our babies and even for ourselves as mothers, which we don’t talk about enough as well, then therefore it’s a shaming experience, and I really wanna highlight this and just have a conversation with you, because shame comes from within. Yeah.

Sleep Training and Overcoming Shame

Taylor: 11:53

I mean, if this is such a complicated conversation, I could talk about this all day. Shame does come from within. At the same time, there is a form of shaming, right, like somebody could say to you you’re a terrible mother because you sleep trains, and that is literally shaming. And I mean it would be normal for that to make somebody feel bad or feel ashamed, because that’s what it’s meant to do. But the term shaming is thrown around and overused because everything’s shaming. Now, if you don’t agree with somebody, you’re shaming them. If you have a different opinion than them, you’re shaming them. If you express your own parenting philosophy and parenting decisions and it doesn’t align with theirs, you’re shaming them. And so I think we really have to understand what is shaming and what is not shaming. Like shaming is literally saying you are a bad person or you are awful or you should be ashamed of yourself because you did this, right? Not, this is what sleep training is and this is how it works. That’s not shaming. That’s providing information. But people who are not fully confident in their choices maybe feel some insecurities, self-doubt, which is all of normal human experience, right? Especially in the stay in age, where there’s so many opinions on how you should parent. It leads them to feel shamed when they’re exposed to information that is not in alignment with the decision they made, and so then they, instead of dealing with those feelings on their own, they just lash out at the person that is providing the information and accuse them of shaming. And I think this is really interesting, because I think that when you accuse somebody of shaming who is just sharing their perspective or what they do or some information, it’s actually a form of shaming to say, hey, you’re shaming. You should like, you need to stop this because you’re shaming. That’s actually like a form of shaming because they’re not shaming Like if that makes sense. It’s just this weird. It’s this really strange thing. It is.

Maranda: 13:48

And it’s also when you say to someone hey, you’re shaming. I think oftentimes you’re exposing your own wounds, yeah, sharing what’s really going on within you, that needs to be healed. Yeah, and I always call these invitations to heal, Like when you’re feeling triggered or when you’re feeling shamed. And I mean this is a whole another podcast episode, clearly, but I wanna bring attention to it in this topic and this conversation because I see it so much. They like go hand in hand. Let’s talk about infant sleep or let’s talk about sleep training, and then all of a sudden it’s like well, first we gotta talk about shame, because that’s what you’re doing, right, and so I wanna bring awareness to that and make sure that we are understanding exactly what shame is and what we’re doing with it and how that feels and all of the things around that. And again, a completely different episode, but I feel it’s so important to have this conversation within it, because what we’re doing here is not shaming.

Taylor: 14:49

Yeah Well, and I think it is really important because I think it’s so prevalent that anytime anybody talks about sleep training and speaks out about the potential problems with sleep training, they’re accused of shaming and that makes parents not want to talk about it. That makes parents not want to admit that they’re not sleep training, that they’re bed sharing, because they don’t wanna, one, be shamed, because people do shame a lot for bed sharing especially, but two, they don’t wanna be accused of shaming. And so the less people that are talking about this, the more isolated and alone other parents who are going through this feel. And so I just think it’s important to recognize hey, you’re not shaming. If you are shaming, stop like, don’t attack people’s character, but you can provide information and you can share your own perspective and that’s not shaming just because somebody says it is. And also, I just think it’s interesting we have to think about the baby’s perspective, because I’ve brought up before. Well, I think it’s interesting that some shaming is okay by societal standards, like bed sharing shaming, that’s like pretty okay, but some shaming is not, like sleep training, shaming is the worst shaming that any parent could do, right. But what about the babies? I mean, are we not shaming babies when we tell them they shouldn’t be crying and they shouldn’t have needs and we need to ignore their cries, is that not a type of shaming? Why is that okay? But it’s not okay to quote, unquote, shame adults and tell them what sleep training is. I mean, it’s just really. It’s really a double standard and I prefer to stand up and advocate for babies because they don’t have a voice to advocate for themselves.

Maranda: 16:20

Become a postpartum university professional. Our evidence-based trainings, guides, downloads, tools and community membership is now open for applications. Join us as we learn, connect and implement better care practices for ourselves and for our clients we serve. You can learn more at postpartumU.com/membership. So let’s talk a little bit about what is normal infant sleep. What does that actually look like?

Taylor: 16:56

Yeah, so it can really look like a lot of different things. There’s such a wide range of normal infant sleep, but some of the main things are it’s normal for babies to wake at night to feed, for comfort, for closeness. It’s normal for them to want to sleep near a parent. A lot of babies will not sleep apart from their mother. It is normal for babies to need support to sleep. So those are kinds of the things that we’re often made to believe that babies shouldn’t be doing. We’re made to believe that babies need to be sleeping alone, they need to be sleeping through the night and consolidating their sleep at an early age. They need to be weaning them by three months, by six months, by whatever age, and that they need to be falling asleep independently. Right, this whole drowsy but awake thing. Lay the baby down drowsy but awake. Well, that doesn’t work for a lot of babies. So it is really normal for babies to need a lot of support to sleep, and it’s normal if they won’t sleep alone in their crib and it is normal for them to wake. But it also depends on the baby. That doesn’t mean that it’s not normal if you have a baby who will put themselves to sleep, or you have a baby who does like to sleep in their crib. Really this comes down to, there are so many different temperaments of our babies and it boils down to what is your baby’s temperament. If you have an easygoing baby who isn’t very persistent and they’re really adaptable, they’re probably gonna go sleep in their crib just fine, whereas if you have a really persistent, sensitive, not very adaptable baby, they’re probably not gonna sleep without you without a big fight, right? So it just really depends on who your baby is.

Maranda: 18:37

Why do you not encourage non-responsive sleep training? And I probably should have started with this a little bit earlier, but that just came to me and I was like, mm. I need to ask for this one right away.

Understanding and Supporting Babies’ Sleep Needs

Taylor: 18:49

Yeah, so babies are designed to communicate to us through their signals or their cries. That is their form of communication when they have a need. And so when we don’t respond to them, we are kind of going against biology, because babies are designed to signal to us and we are also designed to respond to them, but not only respond to them. We’re designed to want to respond to them, right as mothers. When our baby cries, it’s like the worst sound in the world to us and we just want to go pick them up and do what we can do to get them to stop crying. And that is an instinctual response and there’s a reason for that. There’s a protective reason for that. It’s because we’re supposed to be responding to them. So if we don’t respond to our babies and I don’t make any major claims about what will happen if you sleep train, because, again, it totally depends on the babies Some babies are not going to have any trauma or lasting impact from sleep training and some babies are going to. So I don’t make any claims about what it will absolutely do or not do, but we have to understand that when we do something that is in direct opposition to what our babies are designed for then there could be potential consequences. And so when we are not responding to our baby, we are teaching them that their cries are going to be ineffective and that they shouldn’t be crying. And really that is what non-responsive sleep training is. Non-responsive sleep training does not do anything to teach babies how to sleep or how to self-sue their self-regulate. They can’t self-sue their self-regulate. What it teaches them is that it teaches them to stop crying, to stop signaling to us, and so I think we just have to question is that really my end goal? Because I think a lot of parents are kind of deceived by the sleep training industry and they think they’re doing something really good and beneficial for their baby and they’re teaching them this wonderful skill of sleep or self-suting, but they’re not. What it is actually doing is just teaching the baby not to signal, and so I mean that’s the major reason that I just don’t agree with it. I believe our babies deserve to be responded to. Of course, as parents, we’re not going to be 100% perfect and 100% responsive all the time, but we do want to be intentional about it. We don’t want to purposefully not respond to them in order to teach them a lesson, because that’s a lesson. That isn’t really a good lesson for babies, that their cries won’t be responded to, and really, the other thing I should say here is that a lot of people believe that when babies are being sleep trained and they eventually fall asleep, that they’ve learned to self-sue, but they haven’t learned to self-sue. Babies are incapable of self-suing or self-regulating. They rely on co-regulation from a calm, responsive caregiver. And so what is actually happening when babies are screaming screaming, they’re red in the face, they’re crying for however long, and then they finally fall asleep is that babies are their brains are basically shutting down to preserve their energy, because they’ve realized they don’t have energy to continue crying anymore. They’ve realized that nobody is going to respond to them and that they need to preserve their energy. So they shut down as a defensive mechanism or a protective mechanism rather.

Maranda: 21:55

And this sounds really familiar to what we do as adults when our needs are not being met, when we’re crying out for help and we see this often with postpartum depression and postpartum anxiety and I hear often well, you know what? There’s this moment in time where I just could not respond to my baby because I wasn’t being responded to, I wasn’t getting the support that I needed, I wasn’t being able to get my needs met in any way, shape, form or fashion, and nobody’s helping me, and so I had to leave my baby in the room for my own sanity, right? And I hear that one often and my response is always you need to get help just as much as your baby needs to get help, right? Yeah, so so many different components and just like really looking into just this human, this human component, this biological component, and that’s what I really appreciate about your work. So let’s shift the conversation. We’ve got what is normal for quote, unquote normal for a baby in terms of sleeping, and it’s kind of a range, and we know why we want to respond to our baby at night. With that being the case, how do we get optimized sleep while still meeting our baby’s needs? I think that’s like the golden ticket, right?

Taylor: 23:20

I was just going to say that that’s the golden ticket question, yeah, and I mean it’s complicated. So there are several factors to look at, and the factor that most people are talking about is baby sleep right. What can we do to change baby sleep? Basically, to change baby’s needs so that they don’t have to wake at night or we don’t have to respond to them, we don’t have to feed them at night. And I question that method because I don’t think it’s ideal, in order for our own needs to get met, to sacrifice our baby’s needs. I don’t think that that is fair to our baby. I don’t think it’s our baby’s burden to take on our pain and have their needs sacrificed so that we meet our needs. Our job as adults, adult parents, is to make sure that our needs are getting met, and that might look like getting help. That might look like paying for help, whether that’s paying for people to help with meals, with cleaning, so that we can sleep during the day. One huge factor that is really not looked at that much is mother’s help. So postpartum especially is a time that many, many mothers I would probably say most are nutritionally depleted. They are often. They might have hormonal imbalances, they might have pelvic health issues that are impacting their mental health, that are causing them pain. All of those things contribute to sleep and energy, and so when mother’s health is not being optimized and not being supported, when moms aren’t nourishing their bodies, their energy levels are low they might have a hard time falling asleep after feeding baby at night. And so that’s a question I often ask parents is when they tell me my baby’s waking every three hours to feed, and to me I’m thinking that’s great, I would have loved to have my baby’s waking every three hours to feed. They woke every 30 minutes because they had medical issues. But not to dismiss anybody else’s struggles, but I’m wondering what is causing you, if your baby’s waking every three hours, to not get adequate sleep, because that’s like two or three times a night? Is it that you aren’t falling asleep after you wake with them? And that’s usually the answer is some level of insomnia, and that’s often caused by nutritional deficiencies or other mineral imbalances. Right, and so when we address that, when we address the health of the mother holistically, we start to see sleep improving, even when nothing’s being done to baby, when we’re encouraging mothers to make some lifestyle modifications to improve their sleep hygiene, to go to bed earlier with their baby, really to just take advantage of the time that they do have for sleep. They can get sleep even when nothing’s being done to change baby’s sleep. Bed sharing is a huge one. I know bed sharing isn’t right for every family, but it’s so important for new moms, new parents, to be educated on safe bed sharing guidelines and be prepared just in case, because a lot of times breastfeeding moms especially do end up bed sharing at some point, and so being able to do that safely can drastically improve sleep. When you’re not having to get up and walk to your baby and pick them up and sit in the rocking chair and scroll your phone. We’re telling mothers not to bed share, so they’re feeding their baby at night and they’re scrolling their phone. And what is that doing? It’s stimulating them, they’re getting blue light that’s messing with their melatonin so they can’t go back to sleep. But they’re on social media as well, which is like attacking the nervous system so they can’t relax and go back to sleep. So bed sharing, turning the phones off, all of those kinds of things can drastically improve sleep. And that’s just mom. Then there are lots of things we can do to optimize baby sleep too. Sometimes babies do have real sleep issues. They might have underlying medical issues that haven’t been addressed. They’re causing them to sleep poorly or wake frequently or be uncomfortable. They might have their mom might be having a hard time reading babies wake or sorry cues to know their appropriate wake windows. There might be stress that is impacting baby sleep negatively. There’s just so many factors that are not non-responsive in nature that we can help support baby sleep. That’s really our job is to support their sleep. Help them feel safe so that when they need to sleep they can sleep.

Maranda: 27:24

You’re speaking my language, because this is exactly what we do at postpartum universities. We focus on mom and we don’t even focus on hormonal balance per se. It’s nutritional balance and lifestyle balance, because when you start meeting those needs of a mom, everything else really falls into place, as you had suggested. When we are taking care of our lifestyle and our stress levels and definitely our nutritional needs, then all of those hormonal changes that are naturally occurring, biologically normal, are supported and then we are supported in a whole and we can find that balance and are easily able to accommodate our baby’s needs and feel good in those accommodations as well. We really feel good in what we’re doing. I think that’s the huge shift and I get this question all the time why don’t you do anything on sleep? It’s like. Well, we focus so much on these components which significantly help sleep.

Taylor: 28:24

It’s all related.

Maranda: 28:25

We never even have to focus there, because when we’re at starting point, number one nutrition a good 50% of all of your symptoms and your issues dwindle to nothing. You have just such a few left and then we can focus on the remaining aspects and lifestyle changes. That makes all the difference in the world. I appreciate you saying that.

Taylor: 28:49

I think there’s this major misconception from a lot of people that in order to get enough sleep or adequate sleep, you have to be sleeping eight hours uninterrupted, and that is just not true. The reason that moms are often sleep deprived if they have a baby who’s sleeping pretty normally is because they are not like we just talked about. They’re not able to get back to sleep easily, and there are so many reasons for that. But I just think we need to squash this myth of we need to get eight hours uninterrupted sleep. I have an aura ring and I track my sleep, and some nights I bedshare with my son, and sometimes I don’t, because my husband and I kind of switch off. Right now, he has, like, airway obstruction issues. He’s just had sleep issues his whole life, and so we switch on and off, and I actually often get more sleep when I’m sleeping with him, because I sleep in a little bit later. I’m waking more, though, but I’m not waking for long periods of time, and I’m going to bed earlier and sleeping later, and I get more sleep when I sleep with him than when I sleep by myself. It’s just a myth that you have to get uninterrupted sleep.

Maranda: 29:49

Oh, hands down. Okay. So I have four kids. My oldest is 13 and so in my very first experience, I was told I had to put him in the crib, I had to do all of the things that were halving him sleep away from me, do the sleep training, and I tried that because I thought that would be what a good mom did. And I remember I mean, I was so sleep deprived one night I literally imagined I’m like hallucinating that the curtains were coming alive. It was such a it’s a story that I have shared with my audience before, but it was incredibly scary for me to be in that experience. And then, within a couple of weeks, I had went to vacation with my family and they assured me that there was a crib in the space or whatever, while the crib was broken, and so I ended up having to bedshare with my son and I thought, oh my gosh, this is going to throw off everything, all the work that has been done, which there was like no benefit to whatsoever, because clearly I was still not sleeping and I got the most sleep I have ever gotten in my entire like what felt like my entire motherhood life so much sleep. And when I was tracking it, I was getting an upwards of 10 hours and I was still waking a good solid three to four hours and a night. I was making sure that I had like a 12 hour window right, but I was getting so much more sleep. So I’m right there with you and that really transformed the way that I had slept with my babies previously. He never went back to that crib.

Taylor: 31:21

Yeah, I’ll show you that you just can’t go back once you, once you realize the benefits. Yeah, it was too much, and there’s so many other ways.

Maranda: 31:28

I mean, sometimes bed sharing is not the option. Maybe it’s a bassinet next to your bed, or whatever the case may be. I mean there’s so many different avenues and ways that you can really make it work for yourself, and oftentimes it just really it creates. There’s a creativity that has to be had, which is really hard sometimes when you’re so sleep deprived and you’re like, ok, I don’t, I can’t even think of what to do next in my life. I can’t even remember what I ate for breakfast, let alone be creative in exploring what, what I can do to get better sleep. Right, and that’s that’s kind of where you come in, right, yeah, exactly yeah. So where can people find you? Why don’t you tell everyone a little bit about what it is that you do and how you can help, and then where people can find you in your services?

Taylor: 32:16

Yeah, so I offer virtual courses, courses for sleep. I have an infant sleep course and have a toddler sleep course. I have I have an e guide. I have monthly webinars. I do a bunch of stuff. So I have like monthly rotating topics, specific webinars like transitioning to the crib or night weaning. Those are the two that I primarily do because they’re the most most popular topics, and you can find all of that on my website at wwwtaylorcooliccom. I currently do not offer one to one support myself, but I do have an incredible teammate. Her name is Jen and she offers sleep, individualized sleep support for families that need it. So you can again find that information and book with her through my website. I’m mostly on Instagram at Taylor Coolick. I have a podcast as well where I share a lot of free information. So, yeah, I’m in a lot of. I’m in a lot of different places, a lot of different moving parts and pieces.

Maranda: 33:13

Well, I appreciate you so much for being here and, of course, we’re going to have all of those links in the show notes. Please, please, please, go take a look at Taylor’s information. I’m a huge follower. I have been for several years now and I just absolutely adore you and all the work that you are doing in the world. So thank you.

Taylor: 33:30

Well, thank you so much for having me here.

Maranda: 33:37

I am so grateful you turned into the postpartum university podcast. We’ve hoped you enjoyed this episode enough to leave us a quick review. And, more importantly, I hope more than ever that you take what you’ve learned here, applied it to your own life and consider joining us in the postpartum university membership. It’s a private space where mothers and providers learn the real truth and the real tools needed to heal in the years postpartum. You can learn more at www.postpartumu. That’s the letter U.com. We’ll see you next week.